Transcript—Leading a Team Through Conflict
Debra Zabloudil: Good afternoon to the APS community. This is Debra Zabloudil with The Learning Studio. Today we have another segment in our “Leading Through Conflict and Having Difficult Conversations” microlearning series. I am so pleased to be here today with Dr. Gary Mouradian, who is with the Medical College of Wisconsin. Welcome Dr. Mouradian. Thank you for being with us today.
Gary Mouradian: Hey, Debra. It's my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
Debra Zabloudil: We're talking today about leading a team through conflict. This of course is not anything that's easy. When we think about what people struggle with the most, what we hear is, it's conflict and it's having those tough conversations. It almost doesn't matter whether it's early in someone's career, late in someone's career. This is just not something that's easy to do.
Then when you have a team that's going through conflict in one way or another, it can be even more difficult. If you don't mind, I'm going to dive into some questions for you. We can have a little bit of conversation around those.
Gary Mouradian: Sure.
Debra Zabloudil: The first is, just this concept that we have to be comfortable with the fact that conflict exists everywhere. It exists all over society. It exists with personal relationships, business relationships, certainly in labs and in academic communities, etc. How do you personally view conflict? Do you think of it as a negative? Do you think of it as a positive or something in between?
Gary Mouradian: Well Debra, if I could just take a step back. I've had a lot of different experiences on different teams. Whether it's just being a member of a team or leading a team of various natures, a startup company that I was part of, startup company that I started, some organizations within universities and even outside of universities in both leadership and a team member kind of roles.
Throughout all of these experiences, I've come to realize that conflict, depending on your attitude of it, can be seen as something to shy away from or an opportunity to grow both as a person and as a team. Especially if you're leading the team, it's an opportunity for you to enhance the wellbeing of the overall team efficiencies, effectiveness, what have you.
When I think of conflict, I often take stock that this is an opportunity to gauge the character, the caliber of the team at the moment, of myself, of others on the team as a barometer for how others will be interacting and leading in their own capacity.
Because sometimes the one leader, if you will, is not necessarily there. Team segments will go off and do certain tasks on their own. You want to empower them to be good leaders also. You can gauge who's going to really take the reins and navigate these difficult situations, like conflict, by assessing how they react in certain situations.
Debra Zabloudil: How do you think one would take a situation of conflict and turn it into a positive? How have you done that in the past? How do you help people see the bright light in a conflict?
Gary Mouradian: Well, conflict I think can be seen in many people's eyes in different ways and define it all different manners. Some see conflict as these little just insults that are just nuisances. Others see conflict as something a big problem that's coming down the pike. They got to get out of the way or do something about it.
I think the best way to view this is accept the fact that conflict will happen. It's going to happen. You mentioned this at the onset. I don't think anyone will argue this. But when it comes to the conflict, try and separate the emotions that are going to be associated with it.
We're humans. We like predictability. Conflict is something that's not predictable. Take the emotion out of it as best you can. I'm guilty of it too. We all make mistakes. We're always trying to grow. Realize that also.
You're dealing with humans. We want the best most of the time for each other. Take the emotions out and try to see the problem for just what it is. The difference in opinions, difference in processes, maybe someone's doing something that's bothering the other.
You need to approach this in a way that is kind, empathetic to the person who we're calling out, if you will. Something isn't going right by how they're managing a problem. We have to say to them that this is not going the way we need it to, here's what we expect. These are some thoughts. Can we talk about this?
Give them an opportunity to explain where they're coming from. Because oftentimes when you give opportunity to people to explain what they are doing that might be wrong, you'll realize that they just miss some information that was key for what they were trying to do.
Oftentimes they realize, “Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. I'll do it this way. You're right.” Set the emotion aside. Take an open approach, empathetic approach to bringing this topic up with a team member.
Just be open to what they're saying and make sure you listen. Active listening is very key to navigating these situations. Then as you're listening, think about what information they may or may not have had that might correct course easily.
Debra Zabloudil: So much of conflict is about perspective too, isn't it? It's similar to what you're saying. Where it's not, “I'm right, this person's wrong.” It's that they have a different perspective on even what the situation is and even what the conflict is sometimes. I think that's so interesting that you brought that up and so important to really consider.
Gary Mouradian: Oftentimes, perspectives are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Maybe you can come up with a way to satisfy both types of processes that are desired or ideas that are being discussed in a situation. Come with an open mind to try and resolve any conflict. Don't be married to your idea. We're scientists. Once you're married to an idea, you're setting yourself up for some disappointment later.
Debra Zabloudil: Sure. You mentioned being kind. Another way to say that is being humane. Treating the person humanely and leaving them whole. If we can just keep that in mind, as we're going through these situations, it seems like it just has such a much better outcome. Leaving the team whole, leaving the person whole.
Gary Mouradian: It goes both ways. As the person who's engaging one who might be making the mistake, that's what you're doing, but at the same time you have to be open to being corrected. It's definitely both a two-way street here. If I am needing to be corrected and I'm stubborn and I'm unwilling to nudge, and I just see myself, perhaps I'm arrogant.
It's going to be really difficult for the team to resolve these conflicts. Being a good team member and realizing that you might be wrong is okay. It's the leader's responsibility to establish the culture that, if you're wrong take ownership. It's okay.
We just want what's best for the organization to move forward. We're not after individuals. We're not looking for individual prima donnas here. This is strictly about getting the best outcomes for the science, for the business or whatever situation you're in.
Debra Zabloudil: You bring up such a good point about it's both parties that need to keep the other person whole. Sometimes I think we think about the person more that's having that conversation with someone else. That they need to be very careful in their approach but the other person needs to respond well.
Gary Mouradian: I think it really comes down to character of individuals. What are you practicing on a daily basis to make you resilient towards conflicts. It's kind of like I was an athlete in college and you're practicing all the time. You're practicing really hard so that you're ready for game time.
I think the same kind of approach should be taken in the professional world where you're exercising, you're practicing good character. You're listening, you're critiquing yourself in a healthy manner taking stock of, maybe I was a little biased there, or maybe I could have done this more efficiently and correcting yourself.
Because when you do make a mistake for the team and you're being called out in a nice manner, you're going to be able to receive that input in a much healthier manner than if you had not been practicing these types of personality traits, self-practices, if you will.
Debra Zabloudil: A little bit of mindfulness, right?
Gary Mouradian: Mindfulness, self-awareness.
Debra Zabloudil: Self-awareness, absolutely. It's so interesting how self-awareness is so important in everything we do in leadership. Even if you're not a leader but a professional and you want to operate at your best, really we have to be aware of how we come off to other people, our blind spots, how we're receiving feedback, all of those things.
Gary Mouradian: I like the idea of having leaders and teams, but I struggle with just keeping one person as a leader. I think we're all leaders and we're all team members. Yes, there are different tiers in this hierarchy at times. There's a PI and then people under.
But still, each person on the team is a leader. That one PI is also a team member. I like the idea of having a culture where even the new graduate student can question the PIs approach to something. But it's the PIs responsibility to establish a culture. There's a little more responsibility in that, in establishing a culture where that dynamic is permitted.
I think people thrive in those environments because they no longer feel nervous. They're okay to bring up conflict in a healthy manner. You start setting the stage where conflict is just opportunities to grow and not so much personal anxiety between people just because something's different or isn't going well.
Debra Zabloudil: There's a lot of discussion around psychological safety in the workplace and in teams. I think that really what you're speaking to is, for whoever is officially in charge of the team or the team culture to really create that dynamic where people feel safe to disagree or to question.
I think the concept that you just mentioned of a leader can come from anywhere in the team. It's not really about a title. It's how you carry yourself. It's how you engage with others. Anyone can show those leadership traits at any point irrespective of how new they are to the team or how junior they are.
I want to shift for a minute and just ask for some examples of maybe where you think that conflict might evolve in the scientific arena. Have you had specific circumstances that you've had to work through that might be relatable to others that are listening in today?
Gary Mouradian: I'll give you an example from a lab that I was in. It was a decently sized lab. There were multiple technicians working there, graduate students, postdocs. Inevitably, with the larger lab there tend to be many different personalities.
We had two technicians. One was not pleased with the efficiency of another. The other who was being accused of not being efficient was newer, was just trying to take care and not make mistakes because being new to the lab. I was the go-to for both of them. They would complain about each other to me.
Inevitably there was conflict in this situation because they would have to work together. There was a lot of angst between the two, one towards the other more so than the other direction, but in any case, there was conflict.
It fell in my lap to try and navigate this. The first thing I tried to explain individually to the team members is, where they might be coming from and why it will be important to sit down and talk with the other person to try and see where they're coming from and what it is exactly that's bothering them from the other person.
Reminding them, “Hey, look, we're just trying to do the best job here. We don't want to be attacked. We're not trying to attack or make anyone feel bad. We just want to resolve this and have a better understanding of each other as people so that we can do our science.” That's what happened.
It was tricky at first because the one who was very efficient complaining of lack of efficiency felt like this was everyone's knowledge. Everyone should already know how to do this when they come to a lab. But it just wasn't the case for this other individual. It took time. We had a couple of conversations and the conflict arose again after one conversation and arose again. Slowly we chipped at it and we kept the open dialogue there.
One was still upset at the other, but it didn't escalate. We started to come to a resolution. It wasn't one conversation and everyone's happy and married. In fact, it got to a point where it was just a good working relationship now. It was nothing very friendly or anything, wasn't upsetting to anyone, but it was just “Okay we'll get the work done now.” That was the best outcome in that situation.
Debra Zabloudil: That's a good point about it's not a one-and-done necessarily. That can be very frustrating for someone that's trying to mediate. If we think, “Well, why didn't this happen and it's still happening?” But it's a process, repairing a relationship is a process.
Gary Mouradian: Look, as a leader in science, you have a lot of other things going on in your mind and at the bench from writing grants, writing papers. This is a taxing type of situation. But you have to realize if you're in this position, especially as a leader that dedicating the energy to your team, to ensure that there aren't these nasty interactions, not that this became nasty or was, improves the overall culture of the team and just keeps the gears oiled nicely. Even though it feels like it's not science, I think it has lasting effects on your science.
Debra Zabloudil: Absolutely. Often it's one toxic person or one toxic relationship between two people that can bring a whole team down, isn't it?
Gary Mouradian: No, it can. Not all conflicts resolve in something that's nice. I mean someone could be making data up, they're nice people to be around. They do other good work. They give good presentations but that's unacceptable, that type of behavior. So many other unacceptable behaviors and could result in termination of the individual.
Unfortunately that's not a nice outcome. You've lost a team member, but you had to weed out what they were doing. As a leader, you try to use that opportunity to remind the team of what is acceptable, what is not. It's an opportunity to re-establish what we do stand for. That's the best you can do.
Debra Zabloudil: Absolutely. I have one more question for you Dr. Mouradian before we sign off today. That is, what advice would you give others on leading through a situation of conflict, especially those who might be feeling a little uneasy about going into that kind of a situation?
Gary Mouradian: Take stock of what it is that is making you uneasy. What's the worst that could happen here? You're putting your best foot forward. You give yourself that credit. You're going to try to make this work. After thinking that, “What's the worst that can happen?” Maybe a little anxiety, maybe someone says something that you disagree with.
When you put that on paper, read it. It's really not that consequential. As long as you're putting your best foot forward. To alleviate that stress that a lot of people feel, is to just try and understand yourself. Then approach the conflict resolution with an open mind, empathy, realization that they're human. Let the person talk it out. Listen to what they have to say. Then go from there.
Oftentimes you'll realize if you've never navigated such a conversation, it is usually simple things. It's just realigning expectations and actions that has to happen and it'll be okay. You're nervous because maybe you haven't done it before. You're afraid of something awful happening.
But in reality, what's the worst that can happen when you talk to someone. They disagree, maybe they don't like you, but it's only going to be temporary. They don't like what you're saying. Maybe you said it definitely, it's okay. We're all human. You can broach the subject again another time if it doesn't go well. It's not going to bite you.
Debra Zabloudil: Dr. Gary Mouradian. Thank you so much for your time today and your insights. This has been extremely helpful for those who are watching and really appreciate you being part of the series.
Gary Mouradian: Absolutely. It's been my pleasure. Appreciate it.
Debra Zabloudil: Thank you so much.
Gary Mouradian: Have a good one.